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@ Muff Potter: Good to be reminded we are not at war with fellow believers and its never wrong to be kind. When people reject Calvinism because they think it makes us mindless automatons, that bothers me because that isnt what it is about. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. Like you, I only care about what scripture says. Look for them. I may post a little bit of my testimony and how I came to by position of being a non calvinist but for now just wanted to say thanks for this post and for all that you 2 do and for Wade as well and e-church! And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love ones neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of God. And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. Once we start playing the salvation game, the battle becomes nasty. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. It was populated by extremely insecure . He followed what was Augustinianism, which was the soteriological understanding of the church historically - all the way back to the apostles themselves. I often wonder how Sproul Sr. feels about the fact that his son has gone soooooo far off the theological rails. On the other thread, I commented about the issue of sovereignty and the misunderstanding a lot of people have about the concept of sovereignty. © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. I sympathise with Jeff about all the tar spattered in his direction. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter9], Introduction to the New Testament (1915) [Chapter9], https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D, Cultural Dimension of Language andLiterature, Gods Sovereignty in relation to Mans sinfulacts. You can even put your feet up I dont mind! I DO struggle that when a woman is raped, that God chose not to prevent it. @ dee: Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. Nope. So thankful to be free, now. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. In both cases, mans mind is wholly incapable of real understanding. Im not saying you or TWW do that, but I have felt in the past that I was really not allowed to be a Calvinist in some commenters minds. Mhler is one of the greatest Catholic theologians of the 19th century, ranked alongside Newman, though Mhler is more of the technical, systematic theologian. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. . Jeff S, you said this: If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right.. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. Keep in mind, until the last 7 years, I had no reason to view Calvinism with any sort of negativity. He remarked that our theology was illogical. God in nature, God in history, God in grace. I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. Theology needs to take the back seat when it comes to comforting the abused. It was so strong that I knew I had to write what was going on inside of me in connection with my childhood abuse. Rank No. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. The volumes below reflect Baptist beliefs and convictions, yet non-Baptists read many of these well-reviewed volumes as well. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. This is such a profound conversation and so close to my heart! This is a false dichotomy. Julie Anne: They want pure milk easy to digest, soothing, warms their tummy, meets their needs, gives comfort, nourishes them and helps them grow. And later, mamas milkexactly what they need at the precise time they need it., Nick: Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need.. I have come to understand that my experience in some great non-Calvinist churches is not the norm. He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. And I *know* that I sounded every bit as naive as those kids in the article. As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. Because he did not adhere to the beliefs of his well-known pastor. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. No one at my church answers to RC Sproul or John Piper, even though their materials are used sometimes. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. An Introduction To Calvinism & Arminianism | Tim Challies 3680 / C (Canadian Dollars) Wilfred Laurier University (Waterloo Lutheran Seminary) Lutheran. Does it say milk of the word? That sounds contradictory to the importance that many place on the word. Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. There is nothing wrong with being emotional about it, either, except that we need to not use it to demean the other. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. If you heard this preached, it might be from a Hyper-Calvinist church. Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! Lets get this person through their crisis and love on them. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. I opened it in Pages, then assiduously pruned out many, many pages of endnotes and bibliography, and numerous prefaces etc that werent Calvins. Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. There is a new evangelism taking place. Who did he think he was? Arguments against Calvinism and Predestination - Kansas State University I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. (LogOut/ There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. Much is mystery and humans so want to solve the mystery. Here's the list, and I start with the first prez of the CR, Adrian Rogers: Adrian Rogers. They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. I can see why many walk away . And God obviously held back from rescuing me for reasons that I do not yet understand. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. We are human, after all and I think all humans, from the beginning of time, have asked these questions, not just monotheists. The non Christian world will know there is a God by our love for other Christians. Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. John Calvin | Biography, Beliefs, Predestination, Writings - Britannica FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. So many have been through one form of abuse or another and have needs that we should allow for, beyond social norms. My List of Reformed Theologians - The Highway Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? They think they are helping and by knowing what they believe about Calvinism, it will be of comfort to them. You are still lost in your finite mind. Im sure we will have our playful little jabs, and he doesnt mind dishing it. And, yes, there is much more to Calvinism than TULIP, though the two are thought of as interchangeable. 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . Sometimes I get it right, sometimes I get it wrong. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. Chezaro 6 yr. ago. I still have those moments, though they are less prolonged than they used to be. @ JeffB: My bet would be that some (many?) As I wrote above, He uses His will and our wills to accomplish His ends. They are his laws; they are not independent in nature. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. God is bigger than us and is beyond our understanding except for some basics. CALVIN! ), Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp.. But, within the week, I opened my Bible and read 1John1 and knew it was speaking about me. There are some who would consider me non charitable. A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. Many Christian Protestant denominations trace their roots to John Calvin and the reformation movement. Last year when I was sued, I had heard of Calvinism, but didnt really know what and how it had affected/influenced me personally. In his opening chapter, he discussed an incident (this has happened more than once) in which a Baylor student, who had attended the church of a well known northern Calvinist, informed Olson that Olson was not a Christian. JeffS we were writing at the same time. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. System- & neat-little-box-free. , @ Hester: Likewise, Hester, likewise! Roger Olson 23. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life. But are *we* the measure of truth? His interpretation of Christianity, advanced above all in his Institutio Christianae . But something has changed in the last number of years. This may sound like its contradictory, but I dont think it is. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. I recently found the article online hereand it made me cry as I thought about the journey of my life since that night. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. I am not promoting Lutheranism as the only place to go. Youre more than welcome at my table, Jeff. The beginning of thought is in disagreement not only with others but also with ourselves.-Eric Hoffer. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . They are charitable and give us the benefit of the doubt. I might also note that TWC is not the same as Calvinism. I just ordered the book! In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. How to Spot a Calvinista Pastor - Are These Some of the Clues? Evangelicals Find Themselves in the Midst of a Calvinist Revival Hence the terrible attitude of many evangelicals towards science. Righteousness: Imputed? Breastmilk is the perfect food for babies and formula cant touch this aspect of it -scientists have analyzed the composition of the milk weeks/months and have found that the structure changes to meet babies need at each stage of development. Top Arminian based commentary on the book of Romans Much of what I am reading here involves debating or defining what Calvin wrote, etc. . CALVIN! I have gone through some crisis of the faith in which I was unsure of what I understoodbut I never, ever stopped believing in Jesus. more of an approach to others than a nuance of their own philosophy. CALVIN! It sounds like you are making a systematic presentation of theology the gospel. who needs systems & neat little boxes? I have not had that experience. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. But, if, during an online conversation about Calvinism, someone writes that the discussion is disturbing to him/her, certain questions arise beyond the obvious point that its wrong to attack that person: Should the conversation be halted? Calvinism Vs Arminianism: 5 Major Differences (Which Is Biblical?) My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. And to be honest, using the TULIP definition of calvinist, Id have to say Im a 2 point calvinist (I believe in the perseverence of the saints, and total depravity if it means every aspect of our nature has been marred by sin.) For a village to be wiped out? Lin wrote: Hes describing man, not God. @ Bridget: However, they are limited, just as we are. 20 Well-known Pastors or Preachers of Today - GodTube This is what Calvinists need to come to terms with. Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. Notice the implicit point: only THEY really bring glory to God. If I remain silent, then Piper gets to define what it means to be Reformed, even though he denies a lot of Reformed theology and veers into hyper-Calvinism at times. Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. . Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. Cant wait to read the comments section of Dees forthcoming post to Calvinists. I was blessed to be in some wonderful, intellectually stimulating churches. Please feel free to cut and paste comments to which you are responding over at that other post. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). Put more simply, I view others as if I were an Arminian and myself as if I were a Calvinist. That is the only argument they have. I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. We all went to Bostons Youthtimeno mention of Calvinism, Armininism or in between like me. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? Im not saying thats being done intentionally- that is why Im seeking to clarify what I (and others with similar beliefs) believe.