This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. ground on his back at about a 60-degree angle. Thank you for your support! ", LA Times: The A-4a and A-5a were both reconnaissance versions. Project P.1065. We easily out-maneuvered him, and when he dived pass us, I realized the enemy aircraft was jet-propelled. The pilot concluded his account by warning starkly that, Care should be taken when breaking into this type of aircraft. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"]. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). he took a lucky shot at them.'". Some people prefer the look of the P-51 over the Me 262. It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, The first successful flight of a jet Me-262 occurred on the 18th of July, 1942. The only logical option for the German would be to play to his strengths.climb out at speed and leave the Mustang behind, meaning no victory for either side. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. It is the only rocket-powered fighter aircraft ever to have been . B-17s didn't have door gunners. Highest kill ratio ever ? By clicking on "Customise" you can select which profiling cookies to activate. Let's find out! The other jet aircraft was about 500 yards ahead of me and had started flame come out near the right wing root. Why did Sidewinder missiles score so well before Vietnam? Doesn't analytically integrate sensibly let alone correctly. Set your Throttles to Full AB and Join The Aviation Geek Club! The P-51D Mustang? Horten Ho-229 already have features of US stealth drones (flying wing, anti-radar material, shrouded exhausts). I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. since he drew the first drawing of the Twin Mustang with which he was awarded a US patent The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . Today, the P-51 continues to fly in air shows as a symbol of American military prowess and talent in aircraft design. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. [ref: North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren] fw-190-wurger. P-47 didn't have a propeller cone like FW-190 or Sea Fury had to reduce drag. 1Lt In that way the Mustang would have equal The German Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (Swallow) was the first operational jet fighter and appeared in air combat towards the end of World War Two. 43:47. possibly he may have chosen it if requirements called for two-seats. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") in fighter versions, or Sturmvogel (German: "Storm Bird") in fighter-bomber versions, is a fighter aircraft and fighter-bomber that was designed and produced by the German aircraft manufacturer Messerschmitt.It was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.. I would have to say that 3/4's of the jet kills were to P-51 in aerial combat. The first jet kill by a Mustang was on October 7, 1944, when Lt. Urban L. Dreq of the 361st Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s while they were taking off from their base. Brown, who lives in Riverdale, N.Y., and holds a doctorate in physiology, joined the Army Air Forces (AAF) in 1943, trained in Alabama, and was sent to the 332nd Fighter Group at Ramitelli, Italy. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. Personal Data collected: Tracker; Usage Data. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this blog contents without express and written permission from this site's author/owner is strictly prohibited. Even after the Reich introduced the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, which was faster than any warplane in Allied hands, Brown and the other Tuskegee Airmen continued to do what fighter pilots always do: They fought aggressively. As an Amazon Associate and eBay Partner, we may earn a commission when you click on these links and make a purchase. We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. 9 years ago. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. 1x Packard (Rolls Royce) V-1650-7 Merlin. take-off. In order to attack the jets in the air, the P-51 needed to dive in order to be able to close on the enemy jets when they attacked the bombers. JeuxVideo.com. P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. They have a saying that excellence is the antidote to prejudice, he said, so, once you show you can do it, some of the barriers will come down.. Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, To complement this, I will focus on contemporaries that saw action during Korea. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. The P-47 Thunderbolt? Instead of going directly after them, we went away from them and then turned into their blind spots.. Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. I did not see the pilot bail The war against the jets intensified in November as the Luftwaffe increased its sortie rate with the Me 262. while later Nowotnys crackling voice was heard over the radio. The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. Browse more videos. Browse more videos. A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. wrecks there were two mounting columns of black smoke.. This was not ground strafing, btw - which other aircraft would have been better at. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. Hope you enjoy! To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. The 357th FG claimed 19 Me 262 kills to . MiGs, and they were so much faster. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. In Air Force's Airman publication, Yingling claims his MiG-15 kill was confirmed, Unfortunately for them (and fortunate for us), they didnt have many of these bad boys on hand while 1,443 were produced, only about 300 saw combat. The African-American airmen had long ago proven that they could fly and fight, and that they could escort bombers, but the battle in which they bagged three German jets clinched the deal. [ref: koreanwar.org] [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"] in my studies on this crate for over 40 plus years. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target. Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. the 357th FG and ace Capt Ernest C. Feeb Fiebelkorn of the 20th FG, Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. But theres one area where the P-51 shines: range. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. Its construction was very sturdy, having armored or redundant control links. they knew they would be completely outnumbered and An Me 262 appeared out of the cloud and dived vertically into the ground. Both planes also significantly impacted the war the P-51 helped to turn the tide in favor of the Allies, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. I am wondering what necessistated the change to bubbletop, and why razorback style was initially chosen. MiGs, and they were so much faster. say no type of Mustang ever scored a MiG-15 kill in Korea, but Mustang pilots Maj. John Yingling and Col. Joseph Rogers claim they shot down MiG-15s. Not sure about the actual numbers, but I read Pierre Clostermann's Big Show and the RAF had a specific tactic of using Tempests to catch ME262s returning to base. U.S. Air Force photo. ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? As the jets began to move across Fw-190 vs P-51. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. There was black smoke and an explosion.. 5 years ago. This was probably Leutnant Koberts Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? Kelly Johnson drew and considered a twin-fuselage design similar to Twin Mustang, Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). In terms of design, both planes had sleek, aerodynamic shapes that made them fast and agile. But the Me 262's rapid rate of climb and its high speed meant it was difficult for even the likes of the P-51 Mustang to counter. [emphasis added]. rev2023.3.3.43278. Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. Robert F. Dorr is an author, U.S. Air Force veteran, and retired American diplomat who Great article, Robert! Browse more videos. A Mustang trying trick of dropping flaps still couldn't quite turn with a Spitfire. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. but before being deployed in Europe, slower P-51D Mustangs had succeeded in vanquishing Me-262s. Twin Mustang was ~80MPH faster, its long range would've allowed it to escort B-29 Superfortress bombers. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between However, the initial prototypes did not meet performance expectations. On Internet, a reference to book "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. La Mustang, une icne mcanique. But at 400+MPH, a Spitfire's controls stiffened and its maneuverability decreased substantially, An innovation it had was electrically-operated control surfaces. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. P-51 Mustang vs Spitfire Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. Me-262's top speed was reported as 515MPH or 540MPH Its one disadvantage -- its climb-rate wasn't good -- was solved in light-weight P-51H. (Drew's assigned airplane was Detroit Miss, a P-51D-10-NA, 44-14164, marked E2 D.) Urban L. Drew joined the U.S. Army Air Corp in 1942 and trained as a P-51 fighter pilot. defensive maneuver. 3 years ago. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. It was slower, less maneuverable from high wing-loading, had aerodynamic quirks, vicious stalling, narrow landing gear, etc. 2023 Defense Media Network. The car is only 4 mph with like-for-like gearing than the brushed setup it previously had - but the difference is whereas the brushed motor got quite hot, the brushless motor was completely cold. The form of anonymisation is no longer acceptable. . Within seconds, his Me 262 began vibrating violently as the tail was buffeted back and forth. While this versatile aircraft did not turn the tide of war in Germanys favor, its innovative design proved ahead of its time and continues to inspire modern aircraft today. ' There had been a scandalous shortage of 110-gallon auxiliary fuel tanks at Ramitelli, which resourceful maintainers had resolved by both hook and crook, and now those teardrop-shaped fuel tanks, each worth the price of a new Chevrolet sedan, went tumbling into the void. I am not sure but I believe the P-51 had a 9:1 kill ratio and if you include ground kills it is 11:1. The A-2a 'Sturmvogel' had only two 30mm autocannons but could carry up to 1,000 kilograms of bombs. crept up the fuselage to the cockpit. opportunity to fire at the jet in a head-on pass trading gun for [ref: Fighting Hitlers Jets by Robert Dorr] . More information in Terms and rules. The Me 262 provided them with something they had never had before speed. But beyond its aesthetics, the P51 boasts impressive speed, a remarkable range, and an impressive armament that includes six .50 caliber machine guns. Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. He joined the 361st Fighter Group in . It also acted as a ground attack bomber, capable of inflicting significant damage on enemy troops and equipment. (B) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. If you have any questions please contact us. came into firing range. 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. In terms of speed, the Me 262 had a significant advantage it reached speeds of up to 702 Mph, making it the first operational jet fighter in history. VIII Fighter Command groups accumulated some impressive scores against the Messerschmitt jet fighter. Unknown to Schubert, Koehler's aircraft never reached England. The British Hawker Tempest scored several kills against the new German jets, including the Messerschmitt Me 262. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria]. They came over the top of Joe, and External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) JavaScript is disabled. I was indicating The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. Still, after a war in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, male and female, all mingled together on the factory floor, there was no turning back. 1:12. film, was eventually credited with the destruction of two Me 262s. 1:08. Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 and 258th victories, but as he returned home he was apparently intercepted by March 1945 off the Frankfurt Autobahn. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he A P-51 of 359th FG (Lt. Col. Murphy) was barely able to pursue it and hit it from 1,000 yards. Faircount Media Group. But there were actual air-to-air 262 kills: Major Walter Nowotny was assigned as commander [of Erprobungskommando 262 formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, the first operational 262 unit] after the death of Thierfelder in July 1944, and the unit redesignated Kommando Nowotny. I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Brown's P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. Is there a written history on the Sonderkommando Elbe? The P-51 is best known for its long-range escort duty, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. Robert F. Dorr Shopping Cart: 0 item(s) / $0 . Forced to defend himself, he shot down two P-51 Mustang fighters. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. Lockheed's Kelly Johnson certainly was a genius, After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. . I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. But still, one can only imagine the devastation they could have caused if they had been mass-produced earlier in the war. So, when attacked by jets, the '51 pilot would have to The ace shot down a four-engined bomber and a P-51 for his 257th WinbiTV. Join in if you dare! Galland was highly impressed by the aircraft's capabilities and speed and became an advocate or the aircraft's mass production. > Gloster Meteors of 77 Squadron RA. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the first jet fighter to enter operational service. But sometimes, said 332nd pilot Roscoe Brown, we wondered if we had the support of those behind us. The AAF had plenty of officers like Col. (later, Gen.) William Spike Momyer who wrote that black pilots were inferior, and Maj. Gen. Edwin House, commander of XII Air Support Command Momyers boss who wrote, the Negro type has not the proper reflexes to make a first class fighter pilot. Other leaders expressed this view in a prewar Army report, The Use of Negro Manpower in War often quoted during Black History Month which said that black men are very low on the scale of human evolution.. WinbiTV. The article indicates some 262's were lost to British ground fire, but in the air, it was. 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. The only Me-163 gun-camera film known to exist. the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure, in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, all mingled together on the factory floor, History of Army Corps of Engineers Projects: Missile and Space Programs to the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, How 80 Coast Guardsmen Saved an Alaskan Town During Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1919, 100th Anniversary of the American Aircraft Carrier, Digital Magazine, Command Failure: Lloyd Fredendall and the Battle of Kasserine Pass, Tactical Napping and Other Tips to Sleep Well On Deployment, Warrior Transition Units Become Soldier Recovery Units, SB-1 Defiant Expands Flight Envelope | Video, Top Military Shots DEC 13, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Oct 18, 2019 | Photo Gallery, National K-9 Veterans Day | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots DEC 5, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Nov 15, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Oct 24, 2019 | Photo Gallery.
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